Apollo 13 commander James “Jim” Lovell will be in Denver Saturday as a guest of honor at Wings Over the Rockies Air and Space Museum’s annual gala. There will also be a tribute to his fellow Apollo 13 astronaut Jack Swigert.
Apollo 13 launched on April 11, 1970, only to be met with disaster two days later, when an oxygen tank exploded. The mission was aborted and the crew went to extraordinary lengths to return to Earth.
The harrowing tale of their survival made it onto the silver screen in the 1995 film “Apollo 13,” in which Lovell was portrayed by Tom Hanks.
MORE: Apollo 13 crew and flight director honored in Denver
Lovell, 87, spoke with The Denver Post via phone in October about the Gemini missions he flew with NASA, the rebellious act it took to get a statue of Denver-native Swigert installed in the U.S. Capitol National Statuary Hall Collection, and his thoughts on Mars exploration.
The following has been edited for clarity and length.
Q: You get asked about Apollo 13 all the time, but perhaps not as much about Gemini and Apollo 8.
A: Actually yes, because of the movie and the interest in Apollo 13, I speak more about that, but I had three other very interesting flights: Gemini 7, a two-week mission with with Frank Borman to see if man could live in space for two weeks — that was in the early days — and then Gemini 12 with Buzz Aldrin in 1966. That mission was utilized to determine how to do work outside the spacecraft. That was important because later on we did a lot of work outside the International Space Station.
And then of course the third mission I made, Apollo 8, which is the one I most remember and the best in my category, being the first to the Moon and all, and I was the navigator on that one.
To see the Earth as it really is, I think, was the high point of that one.
Q: What was it like to look back and see the Earth from space for the first time?
A: That made quite an impression. We saw the far side of the Moon that no one had seen live before, but really I think the biggest impression was to see the Earth as it really is, and we’re very, very fortunate that (astronaut Bill) Anders took that picture of Earth so that millions of people could also view it.
Q: It’s one of most famous pictures of the Earth ever taken.
A: Yes, it is a classic
Q: So on Gemini 7, you lived in space for two weeks. I understand the living quarters were quite cramped?
A: Yes, it was very, very cramped for two weeks. We kind of laughed when we got back onboard the aircraft carrier — (astronaut) Frank (Borman) and I said we were engaged.
Q: So, knowing what you do now, making it back to Earth after what happened on Apollo 13, would you do it again, given the same outcome?
A: Would I go again? Well I probably would volunteer but I’m afraid I’m too old to be accepted.
Q: Is there anything you would do differently aboard Apollo 13, given the chance, in retrospect?
A: That’s a good question. Actually when I look back on it the answer is no. Everytime a new crisis came up, we had to analyze the crisis and fortunately the solutions between ourselves and Mission Control were the correct ones. So either we lucked out on that whole thing and didn’t get ourselves in trouble, or we were thinking.
Q: How different do you think that mission would be today if you had to do it today with the technology we have now?
A: Using the same equipment, right after (Apollo 13) we redid the whole thing and solved the problem, so I think flying back to the Moon right now with the equipment we had then would be very successful.
Q: It’s a good design. In fact, Orion, the spacecraft that will take humans into deep space reminds a lot of people of Apollo.
A: It’s a similar shape, capsule and set-up. The basic changes I think are more in the electronic and computer-type fields rather than in the spacecraft structure.
But you’re right, I saw Orion as it was being built down at the Cape (Canaveral) and it’s bigger, it holds more people, has the ability to stay in space longer. I hope they start utilizing that to go back to the Moon.
Q: There’s a lot of debate right now on if we should send humans back to the Moon or if we should go to Mars right away. What are your thoughts?
A: The solution really is to go back to the Moon and do it until you’re very comfortable about space flight from the Earth to the Moon, whereby you can then use that infrastructure that has proven itself to expand it and eventually think about going to Mars.
But I think this is years and years away.
Q: NASA is saying Mars isn’t until the 2030s, but there seems to be quite a bit of dissention among former astronauts about what we should be doing with the space program. For 40 years we haven’t gone beyond low-Earth orbit.
A: We really need to go back and examine the Moon. We’ve barely even scratched the surface.
Mars is very exotic, very tempting and it starts people’s imaginations, and of course it’s popular with that movie “The Martian” coming out, but I think when they finally get down to planning for it they will realize the difficulties that are involved.
Q: What are some of the biggest difficulties from your perspective?
A: Well, radiation for one. Also the length of time: to communicate with Mars, round trip is about a 14-minute deal so it’s not going to be that easy.
Q: It would be a little different than how you communicated with Mission Control on Apollo 13.
A: That’s right. Of course if they had a problem like Apollo 13, but going to Mars, that’s an eight-month trip just one way. It would be bad.
Q: Do you still work with NASA at all?
A: On an informal basis. I mean, the last thing NASA wants to hear advice from is an old, retired astronaut. There’s quite a few of us.
Q: So, what sticks out in your mind most about Jack Swigert? I’m sure there’s a lot more to him than what people know from the movie. What are some of the great memories you have of Jack?
A: Well, Jack was a very competent astronaut and I think the movie … I guess they showed his personal side just for interest.
He didn’t train for about two months before launch, really, because most of the simulators and other things were hogged by the primary crew. So he felt like he had to earn his wings every day, but in reality he was very, very competent and also he was one of the people that developed the malfunction procedures for the command module.
Consequently, if I had to replace (Ken) Mattingly with anybody, it would have been Jack Swigert.
Q: How do feel the movie portrayed the entire mission?
A: Tom (Hanks) did a good job. As a matter of fact, all the actors really went at it with sincerity. They worked hard, they got up early in the morning. They even froze the spacecraft a bit — well, the simulator — so it appeared they were getting cold. I have a lot of good words to say about all the guys that played us.
Q: It was a very intense time up there during the Apollo 13 mission, but I’m sure there were some moments of levity.
A: When Jack was put on at the last moment, the next week was filing deadline for income taxes, so he forgot to file his income tax. So on the way to the Moon he suddenly remembered that and said “Guys, I’m in deep trouble. I’m going to have to pay the tax!”
That was relayed down to Mission Control and the President got wind of it and relayed back: “Don’t worry about it, you’re out of the country.”
Q: So, he was saying you’re the only three people not on the planet right now, I think we can make an exception?
A: Exactly!
Q: Do you still keep in contact with (mission control flight director) Gene Kranz and (lunar module pilot) Fred Haise?
A: Oh yeah, I mean we’re all doing different things but we see each other at occasions like the one that’s coming up in Denver.
Q: And you know we’re pretty fond of Jack around here — I’m sure you’ve seen his statue at Denver International Airport.
A:
You see the one in Denver all the time, but there’s another one at the U.S. Capitol building that’s identical.
The Capitol Building has statues of interesting people from all 50 states.Most states already had their two statues in the Capitol Building. Now, they were usually of people from a different age — people like Thomas Jefferson or George Washington or the heroes back in the 1800s of the state of Colorado or Missouri or what have you — but Colorado only had one statue in there.
Somehow the idea came up of “Let’s put a statue up, as we’re allowed to do,” and there were three people that were selected: one was a very famous musician that came from Colorado. The second was either a Vietnam or a Korean War hero. And the third was Swigert.
They eventually decided on Jack Swigert.
So, a sculpture group just north of Denver designed the statue and had it built. And the people from the state of Colorado were, of course, talking to the people down at the Capitol Building, since they were the people that would take care of everything.
And the statue was built. There was a dedication all promised — they invited everybody, I was invited to it.
The statue arrived, I think, a day before or something like that, on the Capitol steps. The Capitol Building people were asked to come down and to take the statue up into the building and put it on its pedestal.
So they came down and looked at the statue.
You see the statue is sort of white — it had color on it because the spacesuit and flag and the patch — and (Capitol staff) said “Wait a second, no. No statues in here can have color. We only have marble or bronze. That’s it, we don’t allow anything else in here.”
So they walked back up the steps and wouldn’t bring it in.
At that time, a group of high school boys from Illinois were walking down the steps on their day of seeing Washington, D.C. and the people from Colorado said “Boys, could you help us bring this statue in?” and they did!
They brought the statue in and the pedestal was still there, so they put it on the pedestal and the people in the Capitol couldn’t do anything.
That’s how the only statue in the Capitol Building is something other than marble or bronze. And it’s there today.
And the ceremony went on as scheduled.
Q: Jack seems like he might think that was pretty funny.
A: Oh, I think so. He of course is the only person of recent vintage that has his statue there. Everybody else are old timers.
Q: Any final thoughts?
A: I’m glad that they will honor him and hopefully that the 45th reunion will remember Jack as doing an excellent job as an astronaut.
Laura Keeney: 303-954-1337, lkeeney@denverpost.com or @LauraKeeney
